Mark Cook

James: [00:00:00] Our guest today is Professor Mark Cook, a distinguished neurologist and a leading expert in epilepsy research. As the Director of Neurology at St. Vincent's Hospital in Melbourne and a professor at the University of Melbourne, Mark has dedicated over three decades to advancing the understanding and treatment of epilepsy.

Inspired by his father's struggle with the condition, he has pioneered groundbreaking technologies including the SEER medical and MINDER devices, diagnostics at home monitoring for epilepsy, and an implantable device for seizure monitoring and prediction, respectively. So join us as we delve into his journey from clinician to innovator and explore how his work is transforming patient care.

Professor, Professor Cook, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the Exceptional Leaders Podcast.

Mark Cook: Thanks for the invitation, James.

James: Absolutely. It's very exciting. [00:01:00] As I said, up top, I can't fit everything you've done into here, but, uh, our listeners are sometimes clinicians or entrepreneurs or researchers or a mix, and you seem to embody all these things. But I want to start from, you know, the beginning and where did your interest in epilepsy treatment come from?

What inspired this journey in the first place?

Mark Cook: Well, I guess, you know, um, as a student, I was always very interested in Neurology. And I think all medical students are interested in neurology. The general population's interested in neurology because it's so fascinating and there are so many interesting aspects in it, it, uh, it touches on so many parts of our experience in life.

And with a lot of popular books, like Oliver Sack's books around, uh, lots of neurological conditions, you can see that everyone's interested in knowing a little bit more about it, right? Because it's just such an interesting area. So as a student, I was very interested in it. But then, uh, you know, my father developed epilepsy, and that went on for some years, and it was difficult to control.

And, uh, and so I [00:02:00] became interested in that. And I became interested in how no one seemed to know what they were doing with it, or to be able to. Count his seizures accurately or understand what was actually going on. Um, so that was a big interest early on. And then I got a job in neurology at the hospital when I was a resident and the, uh, guy I was working for at the time who, uh, has been very, uh, influential in my life, a guy called Ed Byrne, um, offered me a job in neurology, but coincidentally, he said, um, it would need to be in the area of epilepsy because that's a gap in.

The work at the hospital we have at the moment. And of course that fit in very well with my interests. And so I went to work in epilepsy and I've been doing that ever since.

James: Amazing. So, so part personal experience, part serendipity and just meeting the right people at the right time. Um,

Mark Cook: absolutely. And as, as with everything else, you've, you've just got to, I think you can try and plan a lot, but ultimately you've just got to seize opportunities as they present themselves.

James: Hmm. [00:03:00] Yeah. That's a theme that comes up a lot in this podcast and in my own life, because it's, you know, it's like going through the forest with a flashlight and, you know, maybe you can only see 10 feet in front of you in this metaphor and you just got to keep walking. Sometimes you can climb up a tree and get into a bird's eye view of the landscape, but if you're always in the tree looking for that 20 year, 10 year view, you're never going to be walking forward.

So yeah. That's right. And your

Mark Cook: torch doesn't reach that far.

James: That's right. So maybe, maybe more modern technologies and brain computer interfaces, our torch will reach farther, but we won't get into that. So that's. So your, your, um, so your interest in neurology started there and yeah, Oliver Sacks, if anyone hasn't read his books, I recommend, um, they're very interesting because he brings a storyteller, storytelling element to science, which I think really brings it to life.

Like the man who mistook his wife for a hat. If that. Title alone doesn't catch you. [00:04:00] I don't know what will, but coming back to That's right.

Mark Cook: Everyone, everyone would have to be interested in those things, right? So.

James: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, how can, how can you not pick up that book at the bookstore? Um, so I, I definitely share this interest with you.

And I think a lot of our listeners too, um, But how did you, you know, decide, I guess you sort of touched on it, but how did you decide between clinical work, research, and entrepreneurship? Were they always, all three of these always in the back of your head when you were at this juncture? Well,

Mark Cook: no, I, no, I, I never really planned on any of them.

So, you know, the clinical workers, because I didn't really know very much about the rest of it. I imagined the clinical work was really all there was. I knew there was a research thing out there, but I didn't know much about it. Um, but the job that I got in epilepsy, um, to get a, uh, you know, uh, a greater depth of knowledge around it so that I could start up an epilepsy surgical service involved me going to the [00:05:00] UK and working at a, uh, a major neurological center there where, um, I really became very involved in the research and it was part of my job there.

So I kind of had to become, uh, interested in research, so it was a bit of a crash course.

You know, research is really important because, one, not only for improving our understanding, but it, it, It lets you understand a lot more about what it is you're trying to achieve in, in your day to day life for patients, because you need to understand a lot about their condition. And with the research, you can figure out new ways of understanding their condition and new ways of approaching it, perhaps giving different treatments.

So that became very important to me. The entrepreneurship side of it, again, you know, I'd never really planned on, um, but I became As I mentioned at the outset, very interesting, this problem of, that no one can really figure out how often people are having seizures and, uh, you know, patients are often unaware of [00:06:00] them, and they go and see their doctor like my dad did and said, oh, he was having no seizures, and we'd all say, no, that's crazy, he's having plenty of seizures, or the reverse, and so it became apparent this is a really big problem.

And so I was interested in to whether we could build a device that we could implant to, uh, capture seizure activity constantly, uh, or capture the brain's electrical activity constantly and detect seizures and give, uh, a more accurate estimation to the treating doctor of what was really happening. And this has been happening in cardiology for a long time.

So they put little loop monitors under the skin of your chest, which record your heart all the time. And they detect, uh, you know, disturbances in the heart rhythm and let the doctor know and let the patient know. And that's really revolutionized a lot of work in cardiology. And I wanted to see something very similar in, in epilepsy, where we had a device.

that um, could capture similar information, but it was harder because the information is [00:07:00] more complex than just the heart rhythm. You need more electrodes and it's got to be in a, it's a slightly more difficult spot to put things. So there's lots of complexities to it. And so You know, I started work on developing this device that we could implant, but it took a very long time.

It took a very long time for me to figure out how you should do it and what we needed to get done. And also to get other people interested enough in it to help me with it. And the main thing is, you know, getting people interested who can help you finance it because trying to make all this work involves an enormous amount of money.

Uh, in the end, and it doesn't in the early days when you're just doing straight research when you're doing it on a shoestring pretty much, but, uh, but later on, if you're trying to turn it into a commercial operation, it involves a lot of money and a lot of expertise, which you don't have.

James: It's hard to have all that trifecta of money and expertise at the same time.

Um, Yeah, [00:08:00] this is really interesting and I'm drawing parallels in my mind to, you know, how you, like you said, there's tools for cardiology, uh, even oncology somewhat recently had this precision oncology movement where we're getting better at diagnosing and seeing exactly where we can treat with radiation rather than, my understanding is, Treating the whole body, um, with chemotherapy, you know, you can be a lot more targeted and now even with psychiatry, which is sort of like the sadly ugly stepchild of medical specialties.

I shouldn't say that. Cause I, I, I, I work for a company, um, that is helping bring this precision psychiatry movement forward. But I imagine neurology is sort of in that shadow too, where it's, uh, You're trying to be more precise and it's sort of this biological envy of, you know, the current solutions are trying to be rigorous, but

Mark Cook: that's exactly right.

And, and the problem is that the, a lot of what you're talking about with, you know, what's generally termed now precision [00:09:00] medicine. Um, and you know, I mentioned a little bit of that with the cardiology, but I mean, it's really come to its peak with, uh, um, cancer and the genetics work and understanding the basis of malignancies and developing specific therapies to treat those genetic abnormalities, which has revolutionized cancer care.

And we're not in that spot in epilepsy because You know, there's a lot of talk about biomarkers, you know, signals that you can capture, whether they be blood tests or electrical changes or something you can measure that tells you what's happening to the underlying disease. And in cancer, you have that, I mean, you can look at the cancer itself, whether it's big or small, or whether it's a blood count or something, and cardiology, you can record the heart disturbance all the time.

Cardio is a little similar, though, in that the heart disturbances might be infrequent, but in epilepsy, the biomarker that we have, which is, for the most part, an EEG, a recording of the brain's electrical activity, The, the, the, [00:10:00] the thing that we're interested in is intermittent. So it's an electrical disturbance, which might happen separated by minutes, seconds, hours, months, maybe even years.

And yet it's very disruptive. So, um, if you've got a seizure disorder, which only occurs intermittently over many months or longer, that's really hard to manage. You've got no way of assessing the treatment's adequacy or, you know, Um, whether anything's doing the right thing for a long time. So we lack good biomarkers.

In fact, it turns out the EEG is a good biomarker. It's been thought for a long time that it's not accurate because the way we do them normally is we capture 30 minutes maybe of EEG as a matter of routine. Maybe we bring people into hospital for a week or so and record their EEG. That gives a lot more insight.

But it turns out the things you're interested in are spread over maybe many days, weeks, months, maybe even [00:11:00] years. And so you need a system that can capture the data over very long time frames to understand the condition that we're dealing with. And to date, we haven't been able to do that, but there's a lot of people now interested, other than ourselves, in, in, uh, making these systems which you can record EEG continuously.

And, you know, we, over 10 years ago, now work with a, an American company called NeuroVista on device, which you put inside the head. to record the EEG continuously. And this was, you know, spectacular provided information, which had never been seen before. EEG recorded continuously from people doing their day to day activities over not just a few days or a week, but months and years.

And this provided really spectacular insights and continues to do so. And it became apparent that the problem that we have with EEG is that we're looking at the wrong timeframe. So that It's that you need very long periods of data to [00:12:00] recognize the things that you're interested in. So I think that's been a big problem and, and, you know, I've been very interested in, in developing the devices to fix that part of it's, they've been the ambulatory monitoring system, um, where we send people home and we can record them at home.

The, with, with something that's temporary, uh, but the other big one has been, of course, you know, the implantable subscalp system so that we can capture your brain's electrical activity all the time. And I've used the analogy before, it's a bit like a Fitbit for the brain so that we can understand what's happening.

Yeah. 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And I think, you know, already we've seen in the studies that we've done that we get remarkable insights from it, but change management. And I think if we can get this out into the, um, into the community and practice generally, it'll, really dramatically changed the way we manage epilepsy.

James: It's a beautifully put and it makes it palatable, um, in layman's terms of the [00:13:00] Fitbit for the brain. I think anyone can really understand that. And hopefully it's not reading my dreams. Obviously it's not, but you know, um, not yet, not yet. We're working on that, but so there's two kind of two directions I want to, I could go here and I'm curious which one you would want to answer first, but You know, you're describing this experience of this, uh, of someone who has epilepsy as having intermittent electrical activity.

It's hard to monitor. Maybe we start there and take a step back and tell us, you know, what is the average experience of someone with epilepsy? I know there's different types, but, um, you know, what, what is this, what is the before and after of this type of device helping them?

Mark Cook: Well, look, I think the chief problem with epilepsy is that it's, it's unpredictable, intermittent, and yet when it occurs, it's very disruptive.

So, you know, it affects all aspects of someone's life. And [00:14:00] I think for someone who's never been involved directly with epilepsy or suffered it themselves, obviously, it's very hard to comprehend just how disruptive an intermittent disorder like this is. Often when you speak to people from, uh, you know, the administrative world, you know, health, um, health, um, not healthcare bureaucrats, but, uh, but, um, social service bureaucrats who patients with epilepsy might not be able to work, they might not be able to drive because of their seizures.

And it's hard for someone to understand why, if the disorder is intermittent and the events only last minutes, why it should disrupt their life so much. And, you know, if you've got an unpredictable. fault in your system, which stops your brain working unpredictably for a couple of minutes, maybe, maybe many times a day, but most often, I guess, several times a week.

And you don't recognize it yourself, perhaps when it's happening, but others can see it. And it makes it unsafe for you, maybe [00:15:00] to certainly to drive, uh, possibly in your work, maybe around your hobbies or your activities around the house. Um, The effects on your life is very dramatic, and it changes people's perspective on life and, uh, and their quality of life very dramatically, obviously, because they can't kind of rely on their body to do the things that they think it's doing in the way that you normally would.

think you can go about your day to day life. For instance, if you are having seizures which involve you blanking out and behaving strangely, as is often the case with them, it might be difficult or impossible to go out with friends or family or go to a public place or travel on public transport. All of these things are profoundly affected by this intermittent disorder, which whilst it might only affect a tiny amount of your day to day life in absolute terms, its impact is profound.

And I often give people the example that if you had a very [00:16:00] expensive sports car, That, uh, stopped working intermittently for 30 to 60 seconds, intermittently and randomly, several times a week. It looks great in the garage, but you can't actually drive it anywhere. And that's the same sort of problem. And you can't drive anywhere because it's dangerous and you don't know what might happen.

And if you imagine that you lack that sort of control over your day to day life and the activities of your brain, I mean, that's very disturbing. And I guess a lot of people find the loss of control and the humiliation associated with that really hard to deal with, understandably.

James: Yeah, that's almost, I don't know if it's worse, but it's, it's the unpredictability of it makes it scary because yeah, you just, at least if you knew it was going to happen every day at a certain time, you could plan for it, but it's the, the variable slot machine version of that.

Mark Cook: That's exactly right. And so a lot of our work was directed [00:17:00] towards developing systems that, which would allow us to predict seizures. And. We were successful in that with the work that we did with the company I mentioned before, NeuroVista, and showed that it was possible to predict seizures. And we've done work subsequently, a lot of work, showing that there are other ways to predict seizures.

But, uh, it's, it's, it's a challenging thing to implement and, um, making it work for individuals to the degree that's necessary to give them the control that they want is still a problem I don't think we've completely solved. So that's a challenge ahead. that we're still working on, and there's much to be done.

But I think that the progress over the last 10 years has just been remarkable.

James: Yeah. And I wonder, I want to talk about the future of what you see, but first, um, going back in the chronology again, take us back, cause I know you're talking about EEG, right? That's electrical signals and the monitoring, which epilepsy has a lot to do with electrical activity in the brain, but what [00:18:00] about MRI technology and what is the role that MRI played?

And I know you were early. Somewhat a pioneer in MRI technology, which is amazing 'cause I'm sure anyone listening to this is like, yes, I've, I know an MR I've had an MRI or I know someone who's had an MRI. Um, I, yeah. How do I parse out the, the EEG and MRI, um, inspirations? Well,

Mark Cook: look, you know. There again, you know, when I was, uh, starting neurology for most people with epilepsy, you didn't identify an abnormality in their brain that was causing the seizures because the technology of the time, you know, CT scanning most often didn't find an abnormality.

If there was a big abnormality, sure, but most of the time you didn't find an abnormality because a lot of the things causing epilepsy are very small. and subtle anatomically and finding them is hard. So when MR technologies became available initially, and that was, you know, when I went to the UK, that was my, my [00:19:00] job in the research position was, um, you know, dealing with some of the early, uh, new technique, then a volumetric MRI imaging, which let you detect a lot of very small abnormalities that you hadn't been able to before.

And suddenly, in a lot of patients, you could find the cause of their epilepsy. So you went from finding very few to quite a lot. And nowadays, most often, we will find an abnormality. And there's still a lot of people where you don't find an abnormality, but every generation of imaging that comes out lets you see that a little more clearly.

And, and that's had a terrific impact. I mean, I mean, the impact of MRI on the management of epilepsy is immeasurable, really. It's, uh, it changed our To some extent, definition of epilepsy, you know, how you identify whether people have, are likely to have ongoing seizures because you can see an abnormality in their brain that's going to likely cause an ongoing problem.

And as well, it opened the opportunity for, uh, so many people to have surgical [00:20:00] treatment. Because if you can find an abnormality on a scan, and it's in a place you can get to, you might be able to remove it. And if you can remove it completely, then there's a good chance that you might fix the seizures. So, the MRI has changed, not only your ability to diagnose it, identify the causes, but it's, been able to identify those who are suitable for particular treatments.

And as times passed, it's been linked to the new technologies like, uh, um, MR interstitial laser therapies, where a laser is introduced into the brain. Under MR guidance and directed towards where the seizures are coming from and destroys it with some heat energy, which can be controlled through the MR technology as well.

So you can control how much heat's deposited and where with the MR technology. So the, the, uh, you know, the, the effects of MRI on, on how we recognize, manage [00:21:00] and treat epilepsy has just been monumental and will continue to be so as the technology's evolved. Okay.

James: Yeah, things are only going to keep evolving.

And so when you were working on this MRI and you're helping develop it more, you were doing surgery at this point, no? In your career journey?

Mark Cook: Yeah. So we, we would decide on, on whether surgery was suitable, depending on, Detecting some very small changes in the brain, which we could find on this new MR technology that previously hadn't been detectable.

Very small changes in brain volume, in the temporal lobe and so on, which we could accurately assess and, uh, and guide therapy according to that. And the surgical therapies were, you know, I mean, there's, I mean, it's such a remarkable experience to be able to identify someone's epilepsy cause and fix it. I mean, there's really, there's really nothing like that in medicine, I don't think.

James: Right. I think that's part of the instant gratification that surgeons are drawn to sometimes [00:22:00] I would imagine. Yeah, absolutely.

Mark Cook: Yeah.

James: Um, and it's interesting, you know, how, how a technology kind of defines how we think about things. I even think about this in psychiatry. Uh, someone, I forgot who said this, but they're talking about how, when fMRI came out, we started seeing, you know, dopamine and serotonin and, And when we, when we had this ability to see these neurochemicals, we started thinking, you know, it's sort of like if you see a screw, um, or if you have a hammer, everything looks like a screw, a nail.

So we started giving antidepressants because that treated this lack of seemingly lack of serotonin that we were seeing on these brain scans. Now we have richer insight into neural networks, how they connect electrically, and maybe we see things as computers, which makes sense in the computer age. We're seeing things through that lens.

So I just want to know, I agree. It is interesting how this confluence of technology happens at the [00:23:00] right time, but also how breakthroughs can come. From looking across, uh, across different fields, uh, I'm leading into this question of, I want you to tell me about your collaboration with Professor, uh, Graham, Graham Clark.

Am I saying his first name correctly?

Mark Cook: Oh, yeah. So Graham, Graham, so, so Graham, uh, developed the barn here. Um, you know, in the eighties and, and that was revolutionary. And, uh, Graham worked in the same department as me for a while in, in neurology, and he introduced me to some of the technology, uh, over 20 years ago now, which I, I thought would be something that we could also modify a little bit news in epilepsy.

And that's the basis of a lot of the work that we're doing at the moment. He's working around those modifications, but, but Graham's a physician too, like me, you know, he's a, uh, a physician who became very involved with engineers and getting involved with people outside your specialty [00:24:00] is, I think, a really important part of all of this because you gain new insights through interacting with people who approach the world with a slightly different perspective.

Perspective, uh, they have a different approach, not only to solving problems, but they have access and understanding of different technologies and they see problems in completely different ways. So probably, you know, really, I mean, I first started working with engineers when I was in the UK over 30 years ago, and I still do now.

And, um, I think that is, you know, one of the most interesting parts of my day to day life because, you know, they have just such a different understanding of the way the world works. And when you describe the problems that you're dealing with, With to them clinically, you know, they just surprise you by saying, well, why don't you just do this?

And you think, well, we just don't do it that way, but it turns out it's quite a good way to do it. So, uh, getting, getting a range of views and especially [00:25:00] those that are, you know, really out of left field and, uh, stuff you wouldn't have thought of. Um, but the whole approach, you know, the approach of the engineers, it's kind of similar in a lot of ways because medicine's very, very empirical ultimately.

And so engineering, a lot of engineering's empirical, um, but they do have quite a different approach to the way they solve problems often. And as I mentioned, they have access to a lot of different technologies too, especially around the materials and so on. And I think, uh, it's a, it's a problem with the way that we, uh, teach things in universities and the way you're streamed and just because you don't have enough time to get on top of all these things, but there's a lot of stuff out there that can help people that we don't even know about.

And the people who do know about it. Don't understand what problems we are trying to deal with and so trying to get them together and I think this is true over a lot [00:26:00] of fields as He's trying to get them together. It's really important. I think when you can get them together Well, it's led to pretty significant improvements in in human life and well said yeah

James: I know some university programs Try to get engineering students or computer scientists to come into even, um, classrooms with disabled students, students with disabilities or psych programs, just to see what kinds of issues people are dealing with that are affecting them daily in their quality of life.

And maybe how they can make a solution. And if we showed more students. Hey, you can make a huge impact here. If it might not be an easy problem, but it's a worthwhile problem and might not be as sexy as that consumer app that gets people more addicted to their phone, but you know, you could, you could actually help a lot of people here.

Mark Cook: Well, you know, even, even the consumer apps can still work for him. Right. And, uh, again, you know, there's [00:27:00] so much out there and getting the right people together. But what you just mentioned is very important. Having the. Engineers in a clinical environment, and we're trying to design something like that at the hospital I'm at at the moment with a centre called the Aikenhead Centre for Medical Discovery where we put the engineers and material scientists together with clinicians, students and the patients because if they can actually see what the problem is, they can suddenly understand what it is we're trying to do in a way which we often have trouble explaining.

Uh, so I think the direct involvement of these other people in the clinical environment is important, probably critical.

James: Absolutely. And speaking of technology and you said there's a lot of work to be done still. Of course, there's always more work, but the minder system, as I understand that this implantable device that you've created, it uses cloud computing and machine learning, is that right?

Uh,

Mark Cook: Well, yeah, well, the [00:28:00] system captures the EEG and there are lots of ways to analyze the EEG and we have through CAA applied machine learning systems to look at the data, but at the moment, through the clinical trial, we just collect the data, you know, we go through it by hand to validate everything. Um, but, you know, in the long run, all of these things will be analyzed by machines and, uh, and that just turns what's a huge data management problem into something which is manageable.

James: And do you see the role of artificial intelligence playing a significant role in the future development?

Mark Cook: Oh, yeah. That'll be very important because artificial intelligence is much better than humans at doing a lot of things, and particularly image analysis, and that applies, I think, especially to EEGs.

But, you know, there's always a lag between, uh, the, um, introduction of these technologies and their acceptance in the, in the clinical community. And we're probably at that stage at the moment[00:29:00]

It's work before they get out into the field at large, but it's unquestionably the way of the future, right? So, um, we will ultimately have automated systems analyzing all of this kind of data because they're just so much better than we are at dealing with large amounts of what's pretty monotonous data, looking for tiny variations, and there's nothing like a machine learning system to do that.

James: Yeah, amazing. We can, we can pair up with the machines. We don't have to be enemies. We can work together. We're good. And I wanna, there's so much else, but I want to let you go because I know it's late there, but maybe we can leave with, um, You know, what, what advice would you give to young researchers?

Someone who's listening to this might be a clinician, but they aspire to translate their ideas into practical life changing innovations like you have.

Mark Cook: Well, look, I mean, well, thank you. I'm not quite there yet, but I'm hoping [00:30:00] soon, but, uh, um, I think do what you're interested in. Don't be dissuaded by other's uncertainty.

And the most important thing is perseverance. I mean, you need a bit of luck. And as I mentioned at the outset, you do need to grasp opportunities as they come up, which might not be always exactly what you wanted them to be. You can often make them work for you. So I think stay optimistic, keep interested.

You know, I mean, we're, we're really lucky in medicine, I think, because, uh, you've got such a range of opportunities and there is scope to do all this stuff. You've got, you can do clinical work and you can use that to inform, uh, New innovations and, and, and, uh, new approaches to problems. And if you can hook up with other interested folks, particularly those outside your field, [00:31:00] do so because really collaboration is the key to all of this.

James: Collaboration is key. Cross pollination. Don't be afraid to get outside your, your bubble. And actually, yeah, do get outside your bubble because that's sometimes where the best ideas lie. Well, exactly. Professor Cook, uh, super, very much appreciate your time. And yeah, this is all exciting stuff. I will put your links to, uh, Sear Medical, um, Epiminder, anything else I should put in, in the show notes for people can find you.

Mark Cook: Oh, probably the Aikenhead Center of Medical Discovery, but I can send you a link for that.

James: Okay. Perfect. I appreciate it. Wonderful. Well, thank you. And, uh, I'll talk to you soon. I appreciate it. James, thanks for the invitation. Of course. Take care. We'll talk to you again. Bye bye. All right. Let me pause this.[00:32:00]

I'm always afraid if I hit stop recording on Zoom that it's going to erase the whole thing. But I think it's okay. Yeah.

Mark Cook: Yeah. All right. Well, thanks for the opportunity, James. And, uh. And, uh, let me know if I can do anything else.

James: Absolutely, mark. Yeah, thank you so much. Uh, I hope you have a good rest of your night.

I'm gonna record an intro on this. I forgot to say that it is breakthrough FDA status, but I can put that in this extra intro. Um, so yeah, let me know if there's anything else. No worries. I definitely should include, but otherwise, will do. Appreciate it.

Mark Cook: Many thanks.

James: Thank you. Okay. Have a good night. Thanks.

bye-Bye bye, mark. Bye-Bye.