From Jane Goodall to JP Morgan: Building Neurodiversity Programs at Scale with Elizabeth Jenswold

0:00 — James Berges
At Bank of America, a team of employees with intellectual disabilities processed 18 million mortgage documents in 2017. Their error rate was just 11 documents. Not 11 percent — 11 total errors. When Elizabeth Jenswold, our guest today, told me that, I had to ask her to repeat herself.

0:28 — Mai Ling Chan
Yeah, it was amazing. And so she was facing a talent crunch at JP Morgan Chase when she stumbled onto something much bigger. And her program rolling out globally and completely changing how companies think about hiring people with disabilities. And here's the thing, you don't have to be an entrepreneur to create this kind of change. Elizabeth did it from inside a massive corporation.

1:02 — Elizabeth Jenswold
You know, I think really being in China and having the opportunity to develop as a global citizen and to start to see the world for what it is and even to see our own country for what it is, it really opened my eyes and spurred something that was what I call my activist heart today.

1:44 — Mai Ling Chan
Welcome to the Exceptional Leaders Podcast. I'm Mai Ling Chan and together with James Berges, we're getting you top tips and resources for building and scaling your disability-focused offerings straight from the forefront of disability advocacy and leadership.

2:06 — James Berges
Elizabeth's path here wasn't typical. She went from planting trees with Jane Goodall — yeah, the one who hangs out with chimpanzees. She was in China and then she pitched Jamie Dimon, the CEO of Chase Bank, at a Sunday dinner.

2:23 — Mai Ling Chan
Yeah, amazing. That's my typical Sunday.

2:25 — James Berges
Right. Yeah, just casual Sunday dinner. But that was a moment that changed everything because Jamie Dimon said, okay, Elizabeth, yeah, you have this great philanthropy opportunity to hire neurodiverse individuals or people with disabilities. But she pushed back. She could have just accepted that it was a charity case, but she said, no, there's actually a business case here.

2:54 — Mai Ling Chan
I love that. She told him flat out, this is talent. And that reframed everything. So, turning what others saw as charity into untapped business potential is just key.

3:05 — James Berges
Yeah, we covered a lot in this conversation, including how to spot the tasks within any job where neurodiverse people excel, why employment laws often hurt the very people they're meant to protect, the cultural shift that happens when inclusion becomes real, why community partnerships make these programs work, and how sometimes your best business solutions come from the most unexpected phone calls.

3:41 — Mai Ling Chan
Mm, the story that got me from this interview was an employee celebrating his departure by saying, “While I was there, I bought a truck and got a girlfriend.” And that is what independence looks like for different people.

3:54 — James Berges
Exactly. So, whether you're running a Fortune 500 company or bootstrapping a startup, Elizabeth shows us how you can implement inclusive hiring practices. It means finding talent where others aren't looking, so they can not only help your business, but maybe buy a truck and make a real impact on their own lives. So, when you change your assumptions about ability, everything else changes, too.

4:32 — James Berges
Today, I'm so excited to be joined by Elizabeth Jenswold. She's an HR leader who's struck out on her own after working at JP Morgan with Jane Goodall. Amazing things we'll all dive into, but at the core of her work is bringing inclusivity and diversity to large corporations like JP Morgan Chase. And today, we're going to explore how she brings impact and change at these large institutional levels when sometimes it feels like navigating a Titanic of a ship. How do you change the culture and how do you bring in more diversity in that way? And Elizabeth, you met through Mai Ling's son, Alex, through Dallas. How did that come about?

5:35 — Elizabeth Jenswold
Well, thank you so much and thank you for having me. Alex is a remarkable young man, and I met him through Social Venture Partners where he was doing a residency on learning how to, as a young professional, be able to make a social impact in the world at whatever level he is on. And I was a speaker at one of the programs where he was. And as he was listening to my topic, he came up to me after the presentation to say, “You really must meet my mother. I think the two of you would have a lot in common.”

6:27 — James Berges
Perfect. Well, my co-host Mai Ling is a super-connector of people, so I'm so glad that you were able to meet and, you know, usually we're talking to maybe smaller, not small business entrepreneurs, everyone from smaller to venture backed, but you have a really interesting story going through the corporate path to make this large change. Uh but before we dive into that, I would love to know about your work with Jane Goodall, who I remember learning about through The Simpsons of all places, because that's how famous she is. She broke through the cultural zeitgeist for working with chimpanzees. But you were working with her in China. You were doing tree-planting campaigns to fight desertification — that's a hard word. And then you transitioned to employment barriers and breaking those. Can you help me connect the dots between those or tell us a little background of that transition and story?

7:55 — Elizabeth Jenswold
Sure, I would love to. And, you know, working for Jane Goodall in China was definitely one of the highlights and pinnacles of my career. 

7:55 — Elizabeth Jenswold
Sure, I would love to. And, you know, working for Jane Goodall in China was definitely one of the highlights and pinnacles of my career. I was a career HR person and married an international businessman who took us to China for his job. And I have a stepdaughter who's half-Chinese, so I was thrilled and grateful to have the opportunity to be in China. I learned to speak Mandarin and my goal was to really be able to help my stepdaughter understand and appreciate both her American roots and her Asian roots.

And so I was really flourishing at the time in terms of personal development, and I wanted to have the opportunity to give back. I started researching who was doing really great work in China, and Jane Goodall popped up. I mean, Jane Goodall was really at the forefront of things — for young people, for companies, for all things that had to do with peace and the environment in China. She'd been there for quite a long time.

So I called them and I said, “Hey, I'm here in China. I'm here in your backyard in Shanghai. I'd love to come and meet you guys and hear about what you're doing.” After a long and lengthy conversation with the Jane Goodall Institute in China, I ended up going into Shanghai as their Head of Marketing.

What I was doing for them was corporate fundraising and CSR planning with large organizations like Coca-Cola, Standard Chartered Bank, Barbie. I actually talked to Barbie about creating a Jane Goodall figure at the time. They didn't do it then, but they certainly have since that time — which I celebrated wholeheartedly.

Our goal in those years was to create an opportunity for companies to offset their carbon footprint in China. We had a partnership with Fudan University. Whether you're Barbie doing manufacturing or Coca-Cola running trucks across the country, we could calculate your carbon footprint. Then I took groups of students, young people, and professionals to Inner Mongolia to plant trees to stop the spread of the Gobi Desert.

I also spent time in schools teaching young people about the importance of protecting the environment. And I kind of laugh about saying “teaching young people” — they taught me a lot too. When they say nobody’s smarter than a fifth grader, that is absolutely accurate. So it was definitely a pinnacle of my career, and I had several opportunities to be with Jane in person, and I keep those photos of her on my desk still today.

11:58 — James Berges
Wow, thank you for sharing that. That's amazing. What was your—I'm just curious about your motivation to even get into that line of work. Obviously, it seems like you're interested in social or environmental impact. When you were younger, was there a clear career path that you said, “I want to be a doctor” or “I want to be a lawyer”?

I was always jealous of those people who were like that. For me, it was never that clear. I just knew I wanted to help the world in some way. I was interested in psychology and then language, and that manifested in speech pathology. But how did that manifest for you?

12:47 — Elizabeth Jenswold
Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. I don't think I've ever really thought about it from the extent of what happened to me to spur this passion in my life. But I would say that my home life started with my parents, who did a lot of missionary work. We lived in Canada, on Vancouver Island, in the ’70s, and they were doing missionary work with the Kwakwaka'wakw Indians.

Then my mother went on to be the Head of Marketing for World Vision International. And so, in my home and in my home life, there was always talk — not so much about “social impact” as a buzzword, but about how do you leave this world better than you came to understand it.

I guess that was something that was instilled in me at a young age. But for my own personal journey, I think really being in China and having the opportunity to develop as a global citizen and to start to see the world for what it is — and even to see our own country for what it is — it really opened my eyes and spurred something that was what I call my activist heart today.

14:38 — James Berges
Makes sense. Yeah, it takes perspective of all kinds. So it was somewhat in the family, but not completely, right? You had to be entrepreneurial. And so how did you go from tree-planting campaigns to JP Morgan Chase?

14:55 — Elizabeth Jenswold
Well, it was time to come home, and our daughter was going to be going into high school, and we decided that we wanted her to be in high school in the U.S. So we came home, and I called a man that I had worked for at Morgan Stanley who was at JP Morgan Chase.

I said, “Hey, listen, I'm back in the U.S. I'm looking for my next challenge.” He introduced me into the organization, and I was off to the races with a great career — a ten-year career at JP Morgan Chase — which I'm incredibly grateful for because, by my account and by many people's accounts, it is definitely one of the best-run organizations, most thoughtful organizations, and an organization that really values all things that relate back to integrity.

And so, I loved my time at JP Morgan Chase. I was awestruck by Jamie, and I really worked for some of the best leaders in the industry.

16:21 — James Berges
Amazing. And then, so, you find yourself there in this large institution — I use Chase myself, side note.

16:34 — Elizabeth Jenswold
Good.

16:35 — James Berges
Um, and now, walk me through how you got into helping people with intellectual disabilities, for example. You go from HR leader to—was this pioneering My Possibilities, or did that come later after you had already been in there for a while? Did you jump into that?

16:58 — Elizabeth Jenswold
Yeah, so I had been at JP Morgan Chase for a little while, and this was a really interesting time in the U.S., I believe. So, 2016, 2017, 2018 — there was a talent shortage in the U.S. There were more jobs than there were employees we could find to do the work that we needed.

And it wasn’t just in financial services — it was in all industries across the U.S. There was a whole host of things that HR professionals were doing to try to fill that void. You may remember there was a big movement to hire people out of the military. The military was shrinking at that time, and we were really thinking about how to transition people from the military into a corporate environment, which has its own challenges.

We were also very focused on other talent sources — like really staying in touch with moms who were going out on maternity leave and encouraging them to come back to the workforce. We were thinking through retirees. We were focused on junior talent. We were looking at how to attract people into our organizations in ways we hadn’t done before.

At the same time, by chance, I received a phone call from the head of the market that I was in — which was in Dallas–Fort Worth. This person said, “You know, I got a phone call from a client, who is a client that we care very much about, and he was concerned that we needed to be doing more in the intellectual disability space, that JP Morgan Chase seemed to need to have a stronger voice in that place.”

I went to meet with this client to understand what he was talking about. He actually introduced me to Bank of America, who was already doing hiring in the intellectual disability space — and they’d been doing it for a long time. They had over 500 employees in six locations across the U.S. doing fulfillment work.

So, I went to go meet with Bank of America, who welcomed us with open arms. They were so happy to bring us in, let us meet their people, understand what was driving them, why they were doing it. I walked away from Bank of America feeling so inspired.

And it so happened that Jamie Dimon was in town for a casual dinner on a Sunday after Thanksgiving, and I had the honor to be invited to that dinner. He wasn’t in the mood to answer a bunch of questions — rather, he wanted the people at the table to present ideas to him.

So I took it as my opportunity to pitch this idea: we could really tap into a great talent source by hiring people with intellectual disabilities and having some programmatic support around these people to ensure success.

Jamie looked me in the eye and said, “It sounds like a great philanthropy opportunity. Let’s pursue it.” And I said, “That’s great — it’s not a philanthropy opportunity. This is really about a talent source, and it’s really about how you think about your jobs in a new and different way.”

Jamie said, “Listen, I’ll tell you what — if you can find an executive to find the seed money for something like this, I’ll support what you’re doing.”

So I did — I found the executive to give the seed money to get this going. And that’s how it all started. This was really born out of a need to find a new source of talent to do work that was already at the bank, that was critical to the way they were doing business and to achieving success. So that’s how it began.

21:55 — James Berges
Mm, you found the business need. I love this. I'm imagining you at the table just pitching Jamie Dimon. Can you tell us a little bit about what went into that pitch — not the whole pitch — but maybe, did you have to research? Are there certain roles that are better fits for people that might have intellectual disabilities, or what did that program look like when you were pitching it?

22:36 — Elizabeth Jenswold
You know, I didn’t have the program well established when I pitched it to Jamie, but I did have it well established by the time I pitched it to an executive where I was asking for money.

In that capacity, what I was talking about was that all across the bank — and you can look at any large organization, not just financial services — there are iterative processes, routine tasks, or jobs that require a heavy QA process or where it's easy to make mistakes.

That is the type of work where I believed we could bring in people with intellectual disabilities to do that work and be far more successful than their neurotypical counterparts.

I love a statistic I learned at Bank of America — in 2017, their team of people doing fulfillment work were processing mortgage documents. What they were doing is: the mortgage banker sold a home, and James, if you buy a home, you know you get a package in the mail with a whole bunch of paperwork for you to sign and then you send it back or take it to your mortgage banker.

Well, they had 2,500 bankers, which meant 2,500 people were printing, stuffing, and mailing out documents — and that process was fraught with errors. You could get Elizabeth Jenswold’s paperwork in your mail, as an example.

They consolidated all of that work to be done by this one fulfillment team, and they had an amazing QA process on top of it. In 2017, they processed 18 million documents, and of those 18 million, the error rate was 11 — not 11%, 11 documents total.

That really helped to solidify my case for the type of work and how to get it done. There were a lot of questions and hurdles to get through in order to be successful.

We changed the model a little bit from the standpoint of: we didn’t look at entire jobs; we looked at the tasks within jobs — like that fulfillment work I just described — that we could pull out of roles so that people could be successful.

And that took a lot of understanding. One of the best things that ever happened for JP Morgan Chase was hiring Brian Gill, who now leads that team and is the Head of Neurodiversity for JP Morgan Chase. He came out of operations, so he really knew how to break a job down and a process flow, look at pain points, and deliver success on those pain points by hiring talent to address those elements of jobs that were causing stress in the workforce.

27:32 — James Berges
11 errors out of… 11 errors. Wow. I mean, that’s incredible.

27:44 — Elizabeth Jenswold
Yeah.

27:48 — James Berges
Are you looking to go beyond your degree and expand your impact? Whether you're a clinician or educator, you can leverage your skills outside direct services. Maybe you want to break into the exciting world of health and ed-tech, or maybe you're interested in carving your own path in digital entrepreneurship.

Either way, you'll find a supportive community and resources at SLPtransitions.com. Inside, you'll find my personal tips for mastering your mindset in the face of transition—trust me, I've been there—and inspiring stories of people who've made the leap.

You'd be surprised how much your experience translates to other fields. To find out how, join other movers and shakers at SLPtransitions.com.

28:57 — James Berges
Now, let's get back to the amazing interview.

29:02 — James Berges
Did you get to talk to any of the people doing the jobs or their families ever? I'm sure beyond just the numbers, there's the impact on people's well-being. Do you have any off-the-cuff stories?

29:19 — Elizabeth Jenswold
We had so many stories. Yes. One of the things that has been really exciting in hiring people in this space is that oftentimes, in the beginning, the people we were hiring—everything from Down syndrome all the way through autism, varying degrees on the spectrum—often struggled in the interview process.

They were maybe working in jobs before that were in the food and beverage industry, warehousing, or grocery stores. Coming into a professional environment where they were receiving professional development and were really applauded for the actual skill they were bringing to the table was huge.

These individuals came in with so much passion and excitement for their jobs. Their families were thrilled about the opportunity for their son or daughter to be working in an environment like this.

We've seen so much success. I was talking to Brian Gill recently, and he shared a story: he found a way to really help celebrate when somebody moves into their next step.

Those next steps might be someone joining his team, flourishing at JP Morgan Chase, then promoting out of the team into the regular organization—or even taking a job at another company they never would have been able to get without that experience.

They had a huge celebration for one person leaving the organization who had done really well. There were 100 people on a Zoom call to celebrate this young man. The heartwarming part: they asked him what he accomplished and what he felt most proud of during his time at JP Morgan Chase.

This young guy said, “Well, while I was there, I was able to buy a truck and I got a girlfriend.”

These are great life moments for somebody. He's off to the races, living a great life, able to achieve his own dreams.

There are countless stories of people feeling supported and families feeling grateful. There's still a lot of work to do to overcome employment barriers for people with intellectual disabilities, but the stories of success—both in business outcomes and in cultural shifts—are powerful.

34:36 — James Berges
I love that. Yeah, sometimes in mental health tech (where I work full-time), we use measurement-based care—surveys, mood tracking, all of that.

But sometimes it's like… okay, “I bought a truck and I got a girlfriend.” That’s not something you add to a survey, but that's real life. That's some real life impact right there. And it's a win-win.

35:02 — Elizabeth Jenswold
It is a win-win.

35:03 — James Berges
And you mentioned—so, I mean, that sounds like a beautiful positive result. Were there any surprises that were challenging looking back? I'm thinking someone who's listening right now might be interested in making a similar program at their company or hiring people with disabilities in general.

What are some lessons, maybe hard-earned lessons, that were surprises or obstacles you encountered? And what advice would you give there?

35:57 — Elizabeth Jenswold
Sure. Let me talk about a major obstacle, and then I'll talk about how you solve for it.

A major obstacle has to do with the employment laws in the U.S., and they're held at the state level. There are earnings thresholds that people encounter.

So if I am a person with an intellectual disability and I am on social benefits like Medicaid, I'm only allowed to earn something like $1,500 a month. If I earn more than that threshold, I get kicked off those benefits.

In the state of Texas, those benefits are very meaningful to families. They include things like housing, life coaches, and important benefits around how people get from A to B to C in their life.

If I go over that threshold and lose those benefits, maybe my salary at JP Morgan Chase can carry me for a while. But if I leave that job, then I go back in line for my benefits. For something like housing, the waiting list in Texas is 15 to 18 years to be able to resume those benefits.

That's a large responsibility for an employer — to say, “I don't want to pass those thresholds and have this person's livelihood be jeopardized.”

I believe lobbying and focusing on how to change these employment laws is critical. Why would you put somebody on a waiting list for getting a job? There are so many positives to employment: they need fewer benefits, they're contributing taxes, they're contributing to the economy by purchasing goods, it's good for self-esteem, good for the family.

You could go on and on about why it's good — but there are those types of barriers.

There are also barriers around income and 401(k)s. A 401(k) counts as the same type of income for those thresholds.

So it's critical to get educated before hiring people with intellectual disabilities so that you understand how not to negatively impact someone’s or their family’s lives.

There are many ways to do this. At JP Morgan Chase, we worked with a community partner — My Possibilities, based in Plano.

My Possibilities is a fantastic organization that helps young people post–high school think about what's next:

• What are they good at?

• How do they get trained for jobs?

• What does it mean to have a boss?

• How do you get vocational training?

• How do you interview?

They also work with companies to ensure hiring doesn’t infringe on benefits. They can help identify the right candidates, provide training, talk directly with families about transportation and work hours, and ensure safety protocols.

All of this gave us a huge step up in being able to solve the issues we were concerned about.

So I think establishing a relationship with a good community partner and getting educated on the landscape are critical first steps for anyone hiring people with intellectual disabilities.

42:33 — James Berges
Wonderful. So many things touched on there. I'm thinking about my past work as a speech pathologist, trying to transition high school students on the autism spectrum who had so many skills.

Getting vocational training for interviewing is one piece, but it's also training companies—not only to find roles that won't affect benefits (which, gosh, that's a whole catch-22)—but to adapt how they hire and support.

I'm not sure “catch-22” is the right word, but yeah, it's a quagmire of some sort.

43:37 — Elizabeth Jenswold
It definitely is. And not every person with intellectual disabilities is on social benefits, but there are definitely people who are, and you just have to be aware of that.

43:52 — James Berges
Yeah. That's a good clarification. And there are companies that train companies on how to make accommodations properly and create inclusive environments. It takes a village.

The work you're doing is one level. Entrepreneurs in tech making ADHD apps is another level. We're all helping each other rise up.

43:52 — James Berges
Is the advice you would give any different to small businesses or entrepreneurs, or is it kind of the same?

44:56 — Elizabeth Jenswold
Well, it is a little bit different because at JP Morgan Chase, they’ve had the resources and funding to do something at scale. It started in Dallas, but now they’re in Columbus, Ohio; New York; Monroe, Louisiana; Delaware; and expanding to Poland soon, which is very exciting.

As an entrepreneur, when I think about entrepreneurs, there are many things entrepreneurs are great at — and then a whole host of things that would probably make you want to pull your hair out. You’re going to be great at your idea, but there are many administrative things around the type of work or company you’re setting up.

What stays the same is looking at your own business and asking:

• What are the repetitive or iterative tasks?

• What requires a really good QA process?

• What can I pull off of myself or my team so that it’s done right and accurately every time?

From there, you can work with a community partner to find somebody to do that work.

For entrepreneurs, this type of hiring is magic for your culture. The cultural ripple effect is powerful:

• As a manager or employee, learning how to interact with colleagues with intellectual disabilities also improves how you interact with everyone — neurotypical or not.

• It opens up new ways of thinking and collaborating.

The chain reaction on culture is incredible to watch.

47:58 — James Berges
I love that. Yeah, sometimes corporate culture can get clicky in the worst way — like high school 2.0. Gossipy, pressured to mold into a single “acceptable” way of being.

But this kind of inclusive hiring acts as a forcing function for empathy across the board. It’s lovely.

48:26 — Elizabeth Jenswold
Mhm, exactly.

48:27 — James Berges
Well, Elizabeth, I don't want to take any more of your time. This has already been a treasure chest of insights. Is there anywhere people should find you to learn more about your work? Any parting words you want to leave—or both?

48:48 — Elizabeth Jenswold
Well, thank you. I would love for anybody who's interested to connect with me on LinkedIn. If you want to connect with me there and send me a DM, I’m always open to having a conversation on this topic.

And my parting words are: in a global economy, we have many challenges behind us, with us right now, and ahead of us.

For anyone setting up, running, or leading an organization, I encourage you to keep an open mind. There’s always a solution, and it might not be where you’re looking. Follow the little leads. Be willing to have conversations.

The day that market leader contacted me and said, “Would you talk to our client?” — that wasn’t in my job description. But I said yes, and it led to something really amazing.

Keep an open mind. Talk with people. Go from there. The possibilities are tremendous.

50:33 — James Berges
Beautiful. Yeah. We're in it together. All right, Elizabeth Jenswold, thank you for your time, and we'll talk soon.

50:42 — Elizabeth Jenswold
Okay, thank you.

50:43 — Mai Ling Chan
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